Reign Drops Fall…
Ramblings from a hacker in Iowa
This gives new meaning to “getting pissed”.
Guns don’t kill people, rappers do (I saw it in a documentary on BBC 2).
thats an interesting quote, except for the fact that it is retarded
the sole intended purpose of a gun is to propel a piece of lead into human flesh. this is not a side-effect. the pencil in your example is not involved in the causal relationship at all – it is an adjunct. you could have been writing the answers with a piece of coal.
i say this as a livertarian and gun rights advocate. the point is, guns are the cause of gun deaths. this is a fact, not an opinion. the opinion is that there is nothing inherently wrong with this, as many of these deaths involve victims or law officers using the weapons legitimately. nonetheless, in each case the gun performed its primary task in the context of causation.
No no no. Along with your ‘racism’ thing from the other day, I’m starting to think that you just take everything R.L. says as fact without thinking about it. I suppose that’s the sort of thing R.L. expects from his audience.
Guns are designed to kill (or wound). Every precisely machined part and well engineered spring is put together for this. They have no other purpose. Unlike a number two pencil.
And yes, it’s true. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. At least if they have a gun they do.
I think the analogy is valid. A pencil can be used to write correct or incorrect answers. It could be used to write evil thoughts or good. It can be used to write a great work of fiction or a piece of crap romance novel. Likewise, a gun can be used to defend yourself, stop a mad-man from killing innocent people, or for the sport of hunting or target practice. The sole purpose of a gun isn’t just to kill humans. I’ve never been hunting and certainly have never killed a person but I have fired a gun many times at targets. It’s a sport. The point is that the gun itself is not good or evil by itself. It is a machine. It is the person using the machine that defines its purpose.
Also an extremely sharp pencil can be lethal, if jammed up a nostril and then sharply struck in an upwards motion with a large hammer.
However, I have found that No.2 Pencils are slightly less effective for this as they are more difficult to sharpen.
Jamin, what happens when a nosey 10 year old kid plays around with his parents double barrelled pencil? 🙂 Nothing, there are no consequences for mistakes. So, this whole analogy is bogus.
I agree that gun violence requires someone to pull the trigger, and that person is responsible (not the gun) for the outcome. The same argument can be made for nuclear weapons, or standing in a room waist deep in gasoline while a bunch of people holding lighters.
At some point you have to consider the severity of the result of mistakes. In the case of guns, that would include children playing with guns, killing a family member sneaking into your house late at night, etc, etc. These things HAPPEN. For many people, gun violence is beyond their tolerance level for their level of comfort. Gun violence can be too final, it can kill people.
Heck, I support people’s right to own and use guns. What I do not understand is why there is not more support for stricter registration laws by gun owners?
Finally, the statistics on gun violence in the US make it quite clear that countries with stricter gun laws (Europe, etc) enjoy much lower rates of homicides from guns. This is simply a fact.
The NRA says ‘guns don’t kill people, people do.’ But I think that the gun helps. You know? I think it helps. I think that if you just walked around going ‘Bang!’ you wouldn’t kill too many people would you? You’d have to be really dogdy on the heart for that to work. I think that people should just try that. Walk around going ‘BANG, BANG, BOOM, RATTA TAT, BOOM, RATTA TAT, BOOM!’ I think that they should just try it. — Eddie Izzard.
… Oh and Jamin– handguns are not much use except for shooting people. Oh, and sport. Kind of embarrassing if you mix the two pursuits up.
<quote>"Likewise, a gun can be used to defend yourself, stop a mad-man from killing innocent people, or for the sport of hunting or target practice. The sole purpose of a gun isn’t just to kill humans. I’ve never been hunting and certainly have never killed a person but I have fired a gun many times at targets. It’s a sport."</quote>
So a golf club isn’t designed entirely for gold if you use it on a driving range?
JPL: Um, no. I don’t think you understand what an analogy is. Just because guns can be dangerous does not make the analogy bogus. The analogy does not mean that guns are like pencils. 🙂 That would be a simile or comparison. You’re missing the point of the analogy. The point is to show that the object itself isn’t evil or to be blamed; it’s how it is used in the hands of a person.
ffub: "So a golf club isn’t designed entirely for gold if you use it on a driving range?"
I have no clue what you are talking about.
Jamin, "Um, no. I don’t think you understand what an analogy is".
Fair enough, let’s check.
First definition: "Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar."
So, this discussion of pencils and guns certainly is an analogy (I never said it was not an analogy) because, while they are certainly dissimilar items, they share similarity in some respects. Those similar respects being that they are tools wielded by humans.
However, the point I was making was that the potential result of the actions of these two items, pencils and guns, are so radically different (dead body, versus maybe some graffiti on the wall) that the analogy doesn’t work (is bogus, using my original word) for the purpose of this discussion.
In fact, I went so far as to offer some better analogies: nuclear weapons and a gasoline filled room. By discussing gun issue using weak analogies (such as the pencil) you present a strawman argument, which forces someone with an opposing viewpoint to have to defend their ideas from a weakened position.
Next you say "The analogy does not mean that guns are like pencils. 🙂 That would be a simile or comparison. You’re missing the point of the analogy."
Really? Or maybe you just assumed I missed the point, without considering my thought. I really, truly do grasp the intellectual connection of the pencil to a gun analogy. Really I do!
Next you say "The point is to show that the object itself isn’t evil or to be blamed; it’s how it is used in the hands of a person."
Right, that is your argument restated. Did you notice sentence one of paragraph two from my original comment? "I agree that gun violence requires someone to pull the trigger, and that person is responsible (not the gun) for the outcome."
â€œIf guns are responsible for gun violence, then No. 2 pencils are responsible for mistakes on bubble tests.â€
In either case, the problem is the offending party not taking responsibility.
Jamin, your argument makes no sense. (They rarely do)
Using a gun to "defend yourself from a madman who is threatening you and oh please think of the children and look, he’s going to hurt that poor kitten he’s holding" is still killing someone.
Anyway, seeing as you guys seem to think this ‘analogy’ is convenient but also seem to want to invade everywhere on the planet, surely Iran should be allowed to have as much plutonium as it likes. Because "If nuclear weapons are responsible for nuclear war, then car manufacturers are responsible for hit and run accidents".
As someone who has travelled extensively across several continents and lived in several countries I can safely say that this gun fanaticism is sadly a purely american phenomenom. Perhaps only in the war-torn (thanks Britain, Russia and USA!) Afghanistan one can find similar fanatical attachment to gun ownership, and usage.
Unfortunately B. Forbes just appears to throw his extremist (from a non-american POV) opinions out there so any replying here seems pointless. What’s next? The world was created 6,000 years ago?
Regardless of what shows up next on planet Gnome, this site now has the smell of Fox’s american fundamentalism.
If only americans stuck to shooting and bombing people to smithereens within their own borders…
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